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Are the foreign exchange losses of central banks real?

Brad Setser | Feb 1, 2008

The accounting losses central banks will soon report as a result of foreign exchange market moves has all the markers of an issue that is about to explode. Richard McGregor found that this issue was so hot that his usual range of Chinese sources declined comment.

A number of prominent Chinese economists, contacted for this article, declined to discuss the issue of potential foreign exchange losses on the record because of its sensitivity.

Why?

Such losses, were they to be credibly tallied, could easily become a significant political issue in China, where there is perennial and often sharp-edged debate over policies blamed for a loss of state wealth.

Other central banks are likely to report large losses from currency moves when they put out their annual reports. I expect the Reserve Bank of India, Brazil's Central Bank and the Bank of Thailand to post losses for 2007. These countries are intervening to offset large capital inflows; they generally do not have large surpluses (India has a small deficit). China is a bit different: it has a large current account surplus and is attracting large inflows.

Everyone agrees that if a central bank pays more on its sterilization bills and the funds the banks have on deposit than it gets on its reserves it will incur a loss. The rest of the government will have to write the central bank a check to cover its interest payments.

There isn’t agreement on what it means, though, for a central bank to lose money in the foreign exchange market.

 

Remember, central banks with lots of foreign assets have domestic currency liabilities. China’s central bank has three basic kinds of liabilities – RMB cash, money it owes to the domestic banks on their mandatory reserves and its bills (short-term IOUs). It hold mostly dollars and euros as assets. When the RMB rises against the dollar (or the dollar falls v the RMB), the value of its assets, expressed in RMB falls.

A private financial institution would incur a loss. But does a central bank? There is a real debate. Prominent former central bankers – Ted Truman and many others – argue that central banks should only care about protecting the external purchasing power of their foreign assets, not their domestic purchasing power. Accounting losses don’t matter much – as a central bank doesn’t really need any equity capital as it is backed by the broader government. Accounting losses can be covered by a check from the government – it all just sort of nets out. The Treasury bonds the government hands over to the central bank to cover its accounting losses (allowing the central bank to report assets equal to its liabilities) pay interest, but the central bank generally just hands its interest income back to the government...

Others – like me -- are not fully convinced by this argument. Countries that are holding a reasonable level of reserves for prudential reasons shouldn’t worry to much about the domestic purchasing power of their reserves. They hold reserves precisely to meet a surge in demand for foreign currency, and thus they have to worry about the external value of their currency. The fluctuation of the domestic currency value of their foreign exchange reserves is simply a cost of holding needed prudential reserves.

But countries that are adding to their reserves even though they already hold way more than they need to hold the value of their currency down are in effect using the central bank to mobilize domestic savings and invest them abroad. They are effectively subsidizing the consumption of China's exports. A government whose finance ministry borrowed in domestic currency to provide export financing in a foreign currency would incur a loss in the event the value of its foreign currency loan fell relative to the value of the money it borrowed domestically. And that in some loose sense is what China’s central bank is doing, just very indrectly.

The domestic purchasing power of the savings the PBoC has borrowed (through bill issuance) and invested abroad is likely to fall over time. The IMF believes best practice in the event of central bank losses is "support .. in the form of a budget appropriation by the central government in either cash or government securities to recapitalize the central bank." I think it is fair to argue that bonds that will eventually be handed over to the Chinese central bank to cover its currency losses could have been sold to the public and used to finance spending and investment in China. But I would also appreciating hearing dissenting views.

What matters most, though, is what China’s own citizens think. As James Fallows notes in the Atlantic monthly (also listen to his NPR interview), the creation of the CIC has made the process of mobilizing domestic savings to invest abroad very very explicit.

"The Chinese public is beginning to be aware that its government is sitting on a lot of money—money not being spent to help China directly, money not doing so well in Blackstone-style foreign investments, money invested in the ever-falling U.S. dollar. Chinese bloggers and press commentators have begun making a connection between the billions of dollars the country is sending away and the domestic needs the country has not addressed."

The Ministry of Finance bonds issued to finance the CIC’s investment abroad – investments that could well return less in RMB terms than what China owes on the bonds issued to finance the investment – could be used to finance investment in domestic infrastructure. Or to finance more spending on health care – with a bigger fiscal deficit as a result.

Of course, more investment or more spending would tend to stimulate China’s domestic economy, and put more pressure on domestic prices. Then again, China could offset the inflationary pressure by letting its currency appreciate not just against the dollar but also against the euro and a host of emerging Asian currencies.

Fundamentally, issuing bonds to raise funds to invest abroad rather than to invest or to spend at home is a choice. It is clear that China's public did not like the government's loss on its investment in Blackstone – though it isn’t yet clear if they disliked the fall in the dollar value of China’s investment or the fall in its RMB value. China's central bank isn't likely to report dollar losses. It might though soon start to report RMB losses.

p.s. the 5% loss on an accrual basis that is sourced to me in the Richard McGregor article comes from assuming that the increase in China's foreign assets (counting funds in the state banks) is about 15% of China's GDP, and assuming that the RMB will eventually appreciate by about 33% against a basket that matches the currency composition of China's reserves. It is a very rough estimate.

Comments
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JA26Dj04.html Both former Fed chairman Greenspan and his current successor Ben Bernanke have tried to explain the latest US debt bubble as having been created by global over-saving, particularly in Asia, rather than by Fed policy of easy credit in recent years. Yet the so-called global savings glut is merely a nebulous euphemism for overseas workers in exporting economies being forced to save to cope with stagnant low wages and meager worker benefits that fuel high profits for US transnational corporations. This forced saving comes from the workers’ rational response to insecurity rising from the lack of an adequate social safety net. Anyone making around $1,000 a year and faced with meager pension and inadequate health insurance would be suicidal to save less than half of his/her income. And that’s for urban workers in China. Chinese rural workers make about $300 in annual income. Yet these underpaid and under-protected workers in the developing economies are forced to lend excessive portions of their meager income to US consumers addicted to debt. This is because of US dollar hegemony under which Chinese exports earn dollars that cannot be spent domestically without unmanageable monetary penalties. Not only do Chinese and other emerging market workers lose by being denied living wages and the financial means to consume even the very products they themselves produce for export, they also lose by receiving low returns on the hard-earned money they lend to US consumers at effectively negative interest rates when measured against the price inflation of commodities that their economies must import to fuel the export sector. And that’s for the trade surplus economies in the developing world, such as China. For the trade deficit economies, which are the majority in the emerging economies, neoliberal global trade makes old-fashion 19th-century imperialism look benign.
Reply to this comment By Dave Chiang on 2008-02-01 15:54:12
DC -- on topic comments please. this post was specifically about the accounting of central bank losses, and the public perception of such losses.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-01 15:58:43
When the PBOC and the Chinese government decided to accumulate $1.5 trillion of majority dollar denominated reserves, the fx losses were more or less baked in. I guess the question, as you rightly point out, is whether it matters or not. Perhaps not from an accounting or budgetary perspective, but I imagine the nascent Chinese blogosphere isn't going to be very happy. If there are grumbles about unrealized losses in the $3 billion BX investment, what about $20 billion a month in fx translation losses if the RMB appreciates against the dollar at its current pace.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-01 16:22:43
Brad, how does China's depreciation loses on its USDs compare with the depreciations loses of our military assets?
Reply to this comment By Steven on 2008-02-01 17:31:28
Well if there is real pressure in China on the government to "spread the wealth around" rather than to use it to subsidize exports to the US, then that might bring about changes in China that would be effective. The pressure to change has to come from within China and not from without, from the US, for instance.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-01 17:53:39
Great post. There is a quite a difference in terms of immediate cash effect between the accrual or net interest income costs of sterilization (negative carry) and the marked to market costs of FX translation. There’s no getting away from the immediate cash effects on the government budget of negative net interest income costs. But is it clear that PBOC reports the marked to market change in its reserve portfolio as a central bank profit or loss? (I have no idea). If not, the accounting would tend to postpone recognition of the economics, as well as an accounting recapitalization and domestic bond portfolio adjustment. Given the potential volatility of FX moves in either direction (albeit obscuring an expected trend), I’m wondering if the accounting tends to cushion this effect, avoiding recap and bond adjustments every year. In terms of the economics, the Chinese NFA position would introduce FX risk to the overall economy whether or not the position was carried by the central bank or the private sector. Of course, you would argue correctly that the position is much larger due to central bank intervention in this regard. But if there is an NFA position in dollars, it can’t be hedged in any event. And future adjustment via the NFA position can only occur ultimately by spending the dollars for their purchasing power abroad in dollars – not at home in RMB. To this degree, the measured economic cost arguably is an opportunity cost rather than a realized cost. China is not day trading its FX position. It seems unlikely that PBOC would be forthcoming more than necessary to create opportunity cost insight into the consequences of its FX position, any more than SWFs are eager to share their portfolio with the rest of the world.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous1 on 2008-02-01 18:13:20
One way to think about this question is to imagine what would happen if these central banks got rid of all the assets 'backing' their currencies and how this would effect the exchange rate. In China's case I imagine it would have zero effect on the value of the RMB. What would the effect be if a private bank got rid of all its assets? The creditors would panic and the bank's debt would become worthless.
Reply to this comment By cam on 2008-02-01 18:32:37
The foreign investment can be seen as a hedge. Since China is automatically long China, it should hedge that by going long some foreign countries too. (Being a net creditor it can easily be long many places and short nowhere.) But with China currently doing better than most foreign countries (and it not being priced-in because of exchange restrictions and pegged currency), and domestic needs still apparent within China, this argument seems quite thin.
Reply to this comment By artichoke on 2008-02-01 20:40:28
bsetser: I think it is fair to argue that bonds that will eventually be handed over to the Chinese central bank to cover its currency losses could have been sold to the public and used to finance spending and investment in China. But I would also appreciating hearing dissenting views. Hard to say. What you are arguing is that the money that the PBC used to finance American consumer spending, could have gone to increase social welfare through government spending. I'm rather skeptical. As it is, the money went to the United States and then came back to create small manufacturing firms in southern China and then to farmers in the interior. My guess is that if the government was able to directly issue bonds that it wouldn't have gone into schools and hospitals but rather useless mega-projects like the Three Gorges Dam. Wasn't the standard complaint that China had *too much* investment? If that is the case then having more wouldn't be that useful. There is an inconsistency here. If you believe that direct state spending is bad and spending that is market directed spending is good, then I don't see how one could argue that giving the Chinese government more money to spend is better than letting the American consumer decide which companies get the money.
Reply to this comment By Twofish on 2008-02-01 21:31:57
Adjustment can happen either way, but right now in particular, with the us stalling, i would prefer policies to increase demand elsewhere. If we don't decrease demand here we will only be further mortgaging our future. A recession is a great way to bring fear back now, and not postpone it to depression and a loss of sovereignty.
Reply to this comment By Steven on 2008-02-01 21:32:58
Treasury can take on as much debt as it wants. Quasi govt institutions like FHLB will loan money to banks based on collateral that is not marked to market. In other words, the US has an infinite amount of reserves. US can't show FX accounting losses because all its books are denominated in USD, all of its debts are denominated in USD. DC's posts aren't off topic- neither are Henry CK Liu's. All the arguments presented are circular, unless you use a basket of currencies (or gold prices) to measure accounting losses at central banks. You can't show a proper book without having an objective numeraire.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 00:39:43
> Brad, how does China's depreciation loses on its > USDs compare with the depreciations loses of our > military assets? Those assets aren't market to market, so it doesn't matter.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 00:41:52
The accounting of the loss depends on how it is intended to be cured. If carried by the PBoC on its book, the final cure will come from inflation differential. Eventually CNY rate will decline to its previous level and the cost will be borne mostly by CNY currency and fixed-rate debt holders. If on the other hand government issue debt to plug PBoC's hole, the cost will then be borne by tax payers. whatever it does, the cost is already incurred from past interventions. The question is given the inflation trend, what is the real cost of future interventions? Given how much the RMB has already appreciated and the fast pace of inflation, future intervention cost can only get smaller by the day.
Reply to this comment By HZ on 2008-02-02 01:12:06
To make it fair, the government could certainly issue bonds and then dedicate the VAT on exports (much of the rebates are already withdrawn) to pay it down. If all rebates are withdrawn, this could be sizable.
Reply to this comment By HZ on 2008-02-02 01:15:23
DC, The savings glut is real and kind of unique to Asia. The way to measure it is to look at cost of capital reflected in PRC projects (for those who have secure access to funding). The P/E of the stock market is a good indicator. High P/E can be a sign of low cost of capital or high expected earnings growth rate. It is probably a mixture of both but likely the former dominates. Japan used to have the same malaise. Also look at the high capital cost/low return projects many Asian countries have plenty of: semiconductor (and now LCD) manufacturing is one; ship building; infrastructure building binge etc. This can lead to rapid development we all witness, but it also can lead to vast inefficiencies. Eventually one will have face waste and inefficiency.
Reply to this comment By HZ on 2008-02-02 01:29:04
Are the losses from the Ford banking institution real ? After all they are backed by the total of Ford's assets ? What s the diff here ? China has been providing easy financing to its foreign customers, in order to attract foreign capital and grow the easy way, rather than promote wage raises at home and foster internal demand. This is the same with Ford. 5 dollar wage policies and boosting demand from workers ... this is over. The policy has been, make money by not paying people AND make money by lending clients. It s just that some time later the clients are unable to pay and everybody turns out bankrupt. But hey, in the mean time, those 80-90's and early 00's ... Gee what a smooth ride for wealthy people it has been.... Mmmh now that this is over. Now that demand is fucked up coz everyone is starting to cut on loans and to repay the banks (or go bankrupt)... Well it sTime to wonder how to spend the money you earned. THink foundations.
Reply to this comment By df on 2008-02-02 03:05:41
All I know is I wish the nightmare of the U.S. dollar structural decline was not real. I wish the current administration policies were not real. I wish this Federal Reserve policies were not real. I wish the general incompetence of the financial industry were not real. I wish the severe recession that is upon the world were not real.
Reply to this comment By Nicolas on 2008-02-02 04:14:02
I like the present federal reserve policies. Inflation is what we need. That s the only thing that can save us from a debtdeflation depression of 10 years
Reply to this comment By df on 2008-02-02 06:05:03
2fish -- I have no problem with state social spending; I wish we had a bit more of it here. My experience with French health care was far better than my experience with US health care. I am more skeptical of state ownership of industry, though every country has a right to do so, and even more skeptical of state ownership of industries outside its own borders. China's domestic policy mix -- limited social insurance and heavy state ownership -- consequently is not one that I would particularly like to see exported.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 08:10:08
Anon1 and HZ -- I like your analysis, though, HZ, I would note that the real appreciation of the RMB v the $ this year (10%, 7% nominal and 3% or so from inflation differentials) even when combined with moves in the past, still in my view leaves the RMB quite undervalued. And the RMB didn't appreciate at all in real terms v the euro in 07. I don't think the process of realizing losses is close to over. The point that some of the losses are born by those holding bonds (or bank deposits) with negative real returns though is quite accurate. Anon1 -- Tis true that negative cash flow cannot be hidden, and creates losses that are have to be recognized immediately. Capital losses from exchange rate moves are different. My read of the IMF paper that I linked to is that the IMF's advice is more or less to revalue your assets once a year, to avoid day to day or month to month volatility. If the fluctuation that led to the loss can reasonably be expected to reverse itself, there might not be any particular reason to issue recapitalization bonds (though in the event of a reversal that leaves the central bank overcapitalized, it can do a distribution to the government). But there is no absolute requirement that the central bank recognize losses. But most institutions do issue and annual report -- and presumably that is when they have to report on the health of their balance sheet in some form or another. The issuance of recap bonds sort of makes the losses a bit clearer. Rather than issuing say rmb 1 trillion of bonds to buy $135b of assets at 7.5 rmb (also worth 1 trillion in RMB), China may end up issuing RMB 1 trillion of bonds + RMB 325b of bonds (Recap) to buy $135b of assets (worth 675b rmb at 5 rmb to the $). The recap bonds give the central bank 1 trillion in rmb liabilities and 1 trillion in rmb assets -- rmb 675b in foreign assets and rmb 325b in domestic assets. Or something like that. The RMB recap bond is government debt that could have been used to finance other projects, even if the government still ends up getting interest income on it. I hope that is more or less right. cam -- your point is a fair one, which is why it is quite possible for the PBoC to avoid recognizing losses or for the PBoC to recognize losses and operate with negative equity (up until the interest costs on its liabilities exceed its interest income -- then the pboc would need help). presumably, the state banks will happily rollover their PBoC bills even though they are technically extending credit to an institution with negative equity. in that way, central banks are different.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 08:26:26
From the IMF paper: “From an accounting standards viewpoint, and notwithstanding central bank practices in some countries, net losses should not be shown as a deferred or unfunded asset in the balance sheet of a central bank ... In one country, legislative provisions have excluded valuation losses, and certain interest rate costs associated commercial bank deposits at the central bank, from the profit and loss accounts of the central bank concerned. As a result, while the bank’s profit and loss account records net profits, debit balances representing the valuation losses and interest costs have accumulated in a separate account which is shown as an asset in the bank’s balance sheet. This approach overstates net profit and, accordingly, amounts available for distribution is not a recommended practice.” I wonder which country this was. Showing negative equity as an asset would certainly satisfy a test of obscurity in revealing the cost of FX holdings! But maybe showing a receivable from the government to plug the hole in the balance sheet isn’t a whole lot better.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous1 on 2008-02-02 09:29:28
If you get over the daily, monthly or quaterly "mark to market/model/whatever" fiction and you start thinking with a real time horizon in decades you have a few "obvious" scenarios: 1/ The dollar never ever recovers, the USA economy goes down, PBoC looses some bucks but China is then THE superpower. 2/ The dollar recovers, well what PBoC losses are we talking about? China economy keeps growing. 3/ China economy/society blows up because of unrest that has nothing to do with currency stuff but with good old politics 4/ China economy blows up because of monetary imbalance As twofish mentions, we hear only about 4/ on this blog. Brad, what's your opinion on 1/ 2/ 3/ ? Thanks!
Reply to this comment By Laurent GUERBY on 2008-02-02 11:06:27
bsetser: I have no problem with state social spending; I wish we had a bit more of it here. My experience with French health care was far better than my experience with US health care. One problem with these discussions is that they often become too abstract. Whether "state spending on social welfare" and "state ownership of industry" is a good or a bad thing really depends on the details. For example, I'd be far less nervous on having Norway spend more on social welfare than China. The difference is that Norway has a good system in place to make sure that money that is supposed to be spent on health and education, actually gets spent on health and education. China for the most part, doesn't although its trying to get there. One reason CIC exists is because of a pension scandal in Shanghai. As far as state ownership, again it depends on the type of state ownership. There are good examples of state ownership (US state pension funds, US public universities, and Statoil) and bad examples of state ownership (most third world parastatals and British Rail). In the case of China, it's spent about twenty years of trial and error with trying to restructure state ownership, and what it has is I think not too bad. Part of the reason I think that Chinese state investment in the United States is good is that it puts that investment under the supervision of US financial regulators, and forces China to play by American financial rules. Good or bad, we know what will happen the the billions that got invested in Morgan Stanley or Blackstone. Keep that money in China, and it will go into some black hole. I think it would be a really, really bad thing if CIC were to own 100% or even 51% of a major US bank, because once you own that much, there are no limits on its behavior, but the US government is just not going to let this happen. If you own 5%, then CIC is just another institutional investor.
Reply to this comment By Twofish on 2008-02-02 11:16:40
i stuck my neck out on this one and backed horse number (2) above - i e dollar recovers leaving china sitting pretty, in that respect at least, holding cash in a downturn. the dollar also pulling up the rmb with respect to the euro and currencies other than the dollar. i also share df's deflationary prognosis, except that he seems to give some credence to the helicopter magic, and i believe that interest rate cutting cannot stave off deflation if deflation is getting a hold, because it is in the area of sentiment that the deflationary spiral begins. i am not prophesying - just backing certain arguments because other different views have been given more weight than they deserve. there is a range of possible financial futures - deflation set in motion by low wage costs, asian saving, industrial overcapacity, overborrowing against the security of property and other assets of declining value, and the simple rule of thumb that big booms are followed by big busts, so the biggest boom in history will be followed by the . . . . . .
Reply to this comment By gillies on 2008-02-02 11:51:03
HZ, More from Henry CK Liu on the bogus argument that an Asian Savings Glut caused the US Financial Bubble. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JA26Dj06.html Greenspan blames "the Third World, especially China" for the so-called global savings glut, with an obscene attitude of the free-spending rich who borrowed from the helpless poor scolding the poor for being too conservative with money. Yet Bank for International Settlements (BIS) data show exchange-traded derivatives growing 27% to a record $681 trillion in third quarter 2007, the biggest increase in three years. Compared this astronomical expansion of virtual money with China’s foreign exchange reserve of $1.4 trillion, it gives a new meaning to the term "blaming the tail for wagging the dog". The notional value of outstanding over-the-counter (OTC) derivative between counterparties not traded on exchanges was $516 trillion in June, 2007, with a gross market value of over $11 trillion, which half of the total was in interest rate swaps. China was hardly a factor in the global credit market, where massive amount of virtual money has been created by computerized trades.
Reply to this comment By Dave Chiang on 2008-02-02 12:07:21
NC posted on your post today. The one comment so far: "America is China's subprime."
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 12:24:25
re: 'One problem with these discussions is that they often become too abstract. Whether "state spending on social welfare" and "state ownership of industry" is a good or a bad thing really depends on the details.' “…if you are 50 years old, then about 100 new countries will have been created since your birth. Membership of the United Nations grew from 51 original members in 1945 (there were 74 nation-states at that time) to 191 in 2002… 191 or more countries equals the same number of legal systems." - Jean-François Bourque, International Trade Forum, Issue 4/2002
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 12:32:02
I can't say I recall this blog dwelling too much at all on the scenario "China economy blows up because of monetary imbalance". The analysis has generally been much more balanced than that.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 12:37:57
re: "The difference is that Norway" "First of all, Norway is a country that is a federal jurisdiction..." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080131.OSMAIN31/TPStory/National/?pageRequested=all
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 12:49:18
@Nicolas The dollar crash is real as we're the Asian currency crashes when Bill Clinton was in office. There's discussion of 'blowback' that is hitting the U.S. now. Hedge funds and derivatives were used in Asia in the 1990's. Looking back, how is the Asian financial crisis a part of what is happening today with the U.S. financial bubble? China's currency is apparently appreciating while China's central bank does not report dollar losses. Information is limited. What did Asian nations learn from the Asian financial crisis? The Asian currency crashes seemed manipulated by large investor plays. Is it possible in any way that the U.S. dollar declining in an environment of tanking derivatives investments has similarities to the way that some Asian currencies tanked? Asian markets had been deregulated and U.S. markets have been deregulated. Degulation seems to bring currency problems when derivatives are unregulated. This looks like deja vu. So is there any common themes to look at when currencies tank. Who benefits from currency crashes? Who are the central players? How are currency speculators and hedge funds involved? How are central banks involved? How is the U.S. Treasury involved? Currency speculators bet on bubbles and this time it looks like the bet is the U.S. dollar will fail. What happened to the economies in Asia where their currencies failed? What will happen to the U.S. IF the dollar fails? Just wondering? And it looks like getting information about these concerns is not easy.
Reply to this comment By ashkan on 2008-02-02 12:53:11
The dollar is in some sense the PBoC's subprime ... loved the comment. tho -- and this may surprise some european readers -- the euro is too. the rmb is now very undervalued v europe, and the rmb's appreciate v europe will at least produce paper losses for the pboc. DC -- China was a small factor in some credit markets (see Bank of China). it was a large factor in the government bond market/ agency market. and that had, in my view, ripple effects.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 12:56:03
Brad, it's not clear to me why you lump together the central bank and CIC. One issue is the reserve, invested in Treasuries, for which your FX argument holds, but shouldn't investments in equities viewed differently (they are not lending money to a foreign govt, but they are investing in something that hopefully will grow in value). Isn't this the whole idea behind the CIC?
Reply to this comment By Leo70 on 2008-02-02 12:57:12
Laurent -- I don't really know how to respond to scenarios 1 and 2, because the dollar has nothing to recover from against the rmb. the questions sort of assume a uniform and broad based decline of the dollar v the entire world, and that isn't something I recognize. There is a small probability that the rmb won't appreciate v the $ or euro, whether because of some development in china that knocks it off its growth trajectory and leads to massive private capital outflows from cHina or because china opts for inflationary real appreciation. but the most likely scenario -- and this is independent of broader geopolitical developments -- is that the rmb continues to appreciate v the dollar and starts to appreciate v the euro. over time, high productivity, rapidly growing emerging economies; should have currencies that appreciate in real terms, and since china seens inflation adverse, that implies more nominal appreciation. There is a risk that sterilization breaks down in china and rapid reserve growth produces too rapid money growth and even faster inflation -- sort of like what we have seen to date. Right now though I think I have been more worried that China would try to avoid this outcome through a set of administrative restraints on demand growth that would increase its surplus rather than rmb appreciation. as of now, though, they seem to be relying on both -- tho they haven't yet been willing to appreciate fast enough against the dollar to make up for the dollar's 07 slide. the biggest risk to china in my view is that the investment boom is unsustainable, and investment falls back as a share of GDP. directionally, that probably is a good thing -- but it would be disruptive if it happened too fast (as is always the case with an imbalance). if a fall in ivnestment was offset by a rise in consumption/ government spending so savings fell, china's current account surplus might not expand. but if the end of the investment boom led to a fall in consumption and fall in commodity prices, it might just push up savings v investment and increase cHina's current account surplus. that is the scenario that worries me. chinais running a 10% of GDP plus current account surplus in the midst of the one of the biggest investment booms the world has seen. if that boom ends, watch out -- china would likely try to export itself out of trouble, like east asia after 97/98. but it would do so from a different starting point. here I would disagree with 2fish: more domestic spending (or domestic infrastructure investment financed by the government, so less gov savings) might be inefficient, but even if inefficient it stimulates domestic demand. currency losses on "inefficient' (in the economic sense) investment abroad don't have that character. i would hope china would respond to an investment slump with a surge in spending, but i am not 100% sure. sorry, i moved a bit off topic. it relates though to the question of whether china would benefit from a policy regime that produced smaller currency losses for the central bank, even that new policy regime generated other kinds of inefficiencies.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 13:08:19
Re: China's subprime(s) The savings glut resulted in low interest rates. Will it also result in low currencies?
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 13:11:12
leo -- equities can also fall in value (see Blackstone, Dow this year), and treasuries generate interest/ can rise in market value (ask Bill GRoss). I lump them together because in both cases the purchase of foreign assets is financed with RMB debt, so someone in china is taking the currency risk and will take (paper/ accounting/ may be real) losses when the RMB rises. That doesn't change if you invest in equities. It is possible that equity investment will generate sufficient returns to offset the currency losses, but it is also possible that equities will do as well or worse than treasuries or agencies. No one knows. My best guess is that the CIC will have trouble generating the kind of dollar returns needed to offset the rmb's appreciation. and unlike the PBoC, it pays interest on all of its liabilities.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 13:12:03
Gee, the Chinese public is starting to realize they are getting the short end of the stick so that Westerners and the Chinese "Communist" elite can live well. Thank God it is not a democratic country with elections every two years! We can probably keep this good thing going for several more years. Party on America!
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 13:49:09
Those who want to mark-to-market China's currency losses should also do the same for their interest rate gains. One needs to make some assumptions about the duration of China's dollar bond portfolio and renminbi sterilisation bills, but if their treasuries have a duration of say four to five years and their renminbi funding is short, China's mark-to-market loss (since the peg was loosened) should be cut by about a third as treasury yields have fallen. And as I always say, it is not certain that China will lose on their currency exposure in the medium term anyway.
Reply to this comment By RebelEconomist on 2008-02-02 14:01:33
Brad, you say "....but even if inefficient it stimulates domestic demand" as if there is no question that this would be good. Is it? Perhaps China is saving (including both domestic investment and saving overseas) the right amount and it is America that is not saving enough......the ant and the grasshopper. Why don't you do a post for once where you accept China's policy as exogenous, and consider what the US can do to make the best of it?
Reply to this comment By RebelEconomist on 2008-02-02 14:14:10
cam hits the nail on the head. All the world's CBs are first or second-generation copies of the Bank of England, which was at least nominally a private company into the 20th century (although it operated as a chartered monopoly from day one). Since they have now completed the long transition to modern, fully irredeemable currencies, they have no liabilities in anything but a symbolic and historical sense. Since they have no liabilities, their assets are economically irrelevant. In other words, the assets of the PBoC do not affect anyone's decision to hold, buy or sell RMB. Perhaps this is obvious, but surely it is worth repeating. This is not to say that the political effect of these "gains" or "losses" is anything but "real." Indeed, surely the fact that this issue is politically relevant in China is interesting and important information. I suspect that most people underestimate the importance of foreign opinion to internal Chinese politics - if influental foreigners talk about it, Chinese will, too.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-02 14:24:31
rebel -- you right on the portfolio gains from holding longer-duration assets. China though doesn't seem to mark its bond portfolio to market (unlike japan). It just values things at book. And it cannot realize its gains without finding something new to buy -- and it likely would buy new instruments with a lower cash yield right now. In a sense, China current prefers the interest income. in any case, the fall in us rates and the rise in Chinese rates is really hurting China at the margin, since its portfolio is still growing quite quickly. I didn't focus on that part of the mcgregor paper. All told, i think the best assumption is the simplest: over time, the interest rate on China's external portfolio will be roughly equal to the interest rate on its domestic borrowing (at times it will be in china's favor, at times it won't) so in the long-run, most of the gains/ losses will come from the currency. I know that you have argued that countries gain from an interest margin, but in China's case I just don't see it. there is a cost to holding your currency well below its equilibrium value.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 14:30:39
I rather doubt I qualify as an influential foreigner, but I certainly have talked about it, including to the FT's Beijing correspondent. We shall see. Rebel -- China's high savings rate in my view clearly reflects government policy decisions (a rise in gov. savings v gov invesment, falling fiscal deficits, rising undistributed profits of SOEs and the like) so I have trouble viewing it as something beyond the scope of policy. But there are limits to what those outside of China can try to change, so let's assume it is exogenous. If China saves more than it invests, the rest of the world has to invest more than it saves. If China keeps its currency undervalued, there will be a tendency to invest in tradeable production in china rather than in the rest of the world (I think we see this now). That will tend to encourage invest in non-tradeables or a fall in savings. If the US adopted a contractionary fiscal policy that had no impact on China's savings or CHina's overall surplus, one of three things would happen -- uS long-term rates would fall, inducing other parts of the economy to borrow more; employment would fall, because of a fall in demand, reducing inflation and the like and leading the fed to ease, or the fall in US demand/ us rates would push the dollar down v the euro (pushing euro up) until european savings fell/ investment rose and Europe ran a larger external deficit. The key point is that all other things being equal, policies that reduce us consumption (raise savings) are directionally contractionary for the US economy and directionally contractionary for the US. And so long as China is producing more than it consumes, the core challenge for the rest of the world is to generate enough demand to absorb the excess production associated with surplus (relative to Chinese demand) Chinese production. the other part of the global economy of course is commodity producers -- there the dynamics are a pretty clear. A rise in commodity prices has pushed up revenues, and will lead to a higher savings up until domestic consumption/investment adjusts to the higher commodity price. that process is underway, but so far commodity prices have increased more rapidly than domestic spending. over time tho commodity prices should plateau and the commodity savings surplus should fall. all other things being equal, that should reduce the us and european deficits and increase asia's surplus.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 14:41:23
And the only CB in the country with managed float, current account surplus and without losses will be Russian CB 'cause there is little sterilization. Nevermind exploading Monetary Base and rampant inflation. At least mister Cudrin now thinks dollar is going lower, so goverment will have to revalue...
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 15:11:51
This is probably an extremely naive question but could the CBs actually spend their reserves at home? Could the Reserve Bank of India take 50 billion of its reserves and hand it over to the government to spend on infrastructure? They would presumably have to convert some of the money to rupees so that they could actually spend it, which would drive up the value of the INR somewhat. Though they could by things like rail and subway cars, steel, etc. in dollars or euros or whatever. So is this money real? Can they spend it? Because if they can, then it strikes me as the losses are real; or at least they'll feel real to most people in India, China, etc. India is also in a position where it can free ride a bit. Its USD reserves are fairly small compared to China's. Couldn't they sell a bunch of their USD without driving down the USD too much (a luxury that China presumably doesn't have). The mutually assured destruction everyone talks about seems to be between China and the US. Can't the other countries with big foreign reserves get out while the getting is good?
Reply to this comment By ramster on 2008-02-02 15:19:07
Considering only how to deal with China for now, my suggestion would be not a contractionary budget, but a bigger and not more or less balanced one, in which the state uses its powers of taxation to divert resources from consumption to investment, eg in windpower, bridges, railways, roads, levees etc. In short, less C, more G (but really I), same X-M. And given that inequality in America has increased, and much of the wealth of the wealthy was gained in not particularly useful ways, I would be baised towards taxing the wealthy and spending on projects that benefit the poor. Some might complain that this would be giving the state a greater role in the economy, like Europe. To that I would say (1) what is the optimal share of the state?.....perhaps America is below it and (2) America has effectively already increased its state share of the economy on a forward basis, via its pensions and medicare promises.
Reply to this comment By RebelEconomist on 2008-02-02 15:35:15
“…the traditional distinction between the public and private sectors is now meaningless, especially since private companies have extended their reach into providing public services and infrastructure for profit.” - 'Economist Galbraith blasts corporate greed', Steve Maich, FP, 09/23/03
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 15:47:33
Quandary Chines manufacturers have invested heavily while keeping labor costs down. They have the most automated factories yet work on low margins. The PBOC has tremendous reserves. The RMB is strengthening. Whatever the currency losses, investments made have been done with reinvestment and borrowed funds. If demand is down and the Viet Nam's of the world have lower wages what will be down with the huge surplus? Will it go to the displaced workers where overcapacity is present (think computer manufacturing, textiles) or to continue to subsidize consumption in the developed world? btw as an ex-pat in France I found the health care to be of great quality with low administrative cost. Our current US situation is grim at best. I wish i knew the answer for this conundrum. Long term I'd have to bet on China unless there is an energy break-through in the US.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 16:06:49
China is already too powerful economically and otherwise to have to listen to other people's "solutions" to its problems. It will do what it thinks appropriate only when and if it chooses to do so. Most of the US chatter about what China should do reminds me of the "critics" theme (a woodwind cacophony) in Richard Strauss' Ein Heldenleben. Worth listening to.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-02 16:15:44
Dr. Setser: There is no real problem here for the PRC on the interest differential side. It can simply reissue sterilization bonds at a yield lower than current Treasury rates if this were a major problem. As for the FX side, well, tough. They don't call it the balance of financial terror for nuthin'.
Reply to this comment By Emmanuel on 2008-02-02 16:17:25
Moldbug: "Since they have now completed the long transition to modern, fully irredeemable currencies, they have no liabilities in anything but a symbolic and historical sense. Since they have no liabilities, their assets are economically irrelevant." Currency is irredemable, but sterilization bills are redeemable for currency. Sterilization bills are a meaningful liability in that sense. There is also a big difference between domestic government debt held as assets versus foreign currency assets. Foreign currency assets are quite relevant economically. The corollary to this is that foreign currency assets can be replaced by domestic government debt at any time the authorities choose to sell FX assets. Then the replacement assets to your point arguably would not be so meaningful. But until then the FX assets certainly are meaningful.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-02 16:33:45
emmanuel -- actually, they would need to raise the reserve requirement even more, or arm-twist the banks even more. remember, domestic s-term rates are already well below the level of inflation, and the banks really are not keen on holding more sterilization bills. and the constraint here is that it all erodes bank profitability, and thus the underlying basis of the banks stock market valuation .. ramster -- foreign exchange reserves can only be used to meet a need for foreign exchange. so they could fund a capital outflow. or they could fund a current account deficit. in india's case, the government could simply borrow more, run a bigger fiscal deficit and likely create a larger current deficit. and in theory, that deficit could be financed by selling off reserves (to pay for the higher import bill) rather than new borrowing. various plans to link additional borrowing to fx assets in my view just kind of disguise the underlying dynamics. that doesn't necessarily mean they are bad, but just running a bigger fiscal deficit would achieve much the same result. you are right about india free riding a bit -- the RBI clearly has increased their euro and pound holdings. at the same time, india faces higher sterilization costs and the 07 appreciation will hit the RBI's balance sheet, as india appreciated v the euro (modestly) if memory holds as well as against the dollar. the big constraint on india tho is concerns that a stronger rupee would let china undercut india in a host of markets, not the least textiles.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 17:00:56
Those who argue that China has no need to listen to advice from abroad are absolutely right. At the same time, other countries also do not have to keep their markets open to Chinese goods or Chinese investment. That would be a "nuclear" response and one I would rather avoid, but it does highlight why the world does have some leverage, namely, China relies on access to their markets to make up for its own shortage of demand/ find outlets for its surplus savings.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 17:03:29
"The world does have some leverage, namely, China relies on access to their markets to make up for its own shortage of demand/ find outlets for its surplus savings" - Brad Wishful thinking that the current 231 nations of the world can agree on anything. Under what legal grounds would Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, or even Europe agree to a global trade embargo on China? Every US Presidental candidate both Republican and Democrat always threatens tough economic and political action against the Chinese government, but reality has a way of intruding and the existing status quo is indefinitely maintained. As a result of trade diversification policies, the Chinese economy is significantly less dependent on the US Economy today than a decade ago. The Chinese leadership has learned not to take seriously the US political leaders.
Reply to this comment By Dave Chiang on 2008-02-02 17:59:59
A sterilization bond is a liability in the sense that it is redeemed for currency. (Perhaps the simplest way to think of a sterilization bond is as currency with a "not valid before" date.) But "redeeming" a sterilization bond does not depend in any way, of course, on the issuer's assets. Unless you count the printing press as such. (It would be very interesting to try to value this asset.) The PBoC certainly has a real effect when it buys dollars! But this is a separate issue - the question was whether mark-to-market losses on the PBoC's balance sheet have a real effect. I think anyone who's quoted regularly in the press is influential by definition. What other definition could there be?
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-02 18:19:09
bsetser: At the same time, other countries also do not have to keep their markets open to Chinese goods or Chinese investment. That would be a "nuclear" response and one I would rather avoid, but it does highlight why the world does have some leverage, namely, China relies on access to their markets to make up for its own shortage of demand/ find outlets for its surplus savings. It's not "open" or "closed" but rather how open and how closed. The trouble with using this option is that the political dividing lines just don't fall squarely between China and the United States. There are groups in both the United States and China which would benefit by China running a current account surplus, there are groups in both the United States and China which would benefit by China running a current account deficit. In any situation in which there was a general consensus in the United States that China was taking advantage of the United States without any advantage to it, the US government would act. The trouble is that lots and lots of people in the United States benefit from China keeping the RMB cheap, so anything actions one takes to punish China are going to meet with a lot of resistance from people within the United States.
Reply to this comment By Twofish on 2008-02-02 18:39:47
dc -- no need for trade embargo, just tariffs. china could take the US to the WTO then, but the damage would be done. 2fish tho is right that this hasn't happened b/c there are important constituencies in the us that would be hurt. In any case, this went way off topic; i simply wanted to highlight that neither China nor the SS can completely ignore the others' policy preferences; each has their points of vulnerability.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 19:07:55
influential = someone whose advice is sought by decision makers, not by reporters looking for quotes.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-02 19:08:51
moldbug: "The PBoC certainly has a real effect when it buys dollars! But this is a separate issue - the question was whether mark-to-market losses on the PBoC's balance sheet have a real effect." If PBOC has a real effect when it buys dollars, then it must have a real effect if/when it sells dollars. Marked to market losses answer a question about contingency. Whether or not mark-to-market losses have a real effect is probably a question for any holder of assets as much as for PBOC.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-02 19:41:21
e.g. are currently estimated sub-prime losses more 'real' than currently estimated PBOC FX losses?
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-02 19:49:29
Decision makers read the fishwrap too! Even in China. A very interesting picture of PRC decisionmaking, circa 1990, is in the volume The Tiananmen Papers. Its authenticity has been questioned, but if the documents are not accurate they were certainly reconstructed by someone with good access. From my perspective the likes of Deng and even Li Peng come across very well. And throughout the crisis the leadership is receiving constant summaries of Western press reactions. I suspect that this link has only become stronger. And certainly in the West the press defines the consensus reality and the spectrum of plausible policies. My stepfather was a student of McGeorge Bundy at Harvard, and once when there was some kind of newspaper strike at the Times, Bundy told his class that "we've lost our best interoffice memo system."
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-02 22:22:04
anon, There will certainly be a real effect if the PBOC sells dollars! Let's hope we don't see it. I should have said "buys or sells." But balance-sheet solvency is a very different issue when you have real, redeemable liabilities that your assets need to cover. If a financial entity cannot resolve all its liabilities by selling its assets, ie is insolvent, there is no economic reason for anyone to lend it any more money. (There may still be a political reason.) "Mark to market," as practiced today, is often a very imperfect way to simulate this process. Another way to say this is that the purpose of double-entry accounting in the case of, say, Citi, is to determine the book value of shareholder equity. This number obviously has considerable meaning to Citi shareholders. If it becomes negative, it has no more meaning to shareholders, who have passed into that bourne where equity is no more, but the tsuris passes to creditors. For the PBOC or any CB, there is no analogous process that I can think of. You can think of holders of RMB or sterilization bonds as creditors, but the exchange value of these "securities" does not depend on the PBOC's assets.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-02 22:35:17
"dc -- no need for trade embargo, just tariffs. china could take the US to the WTO then, but the damage would be done. 2fish tho is right that this hasn't happened b/c there are important constituencies in the us that would be hurt. In any case, this went way off topic; i simply wanted to highlight that neither China nor the SS can completely ignore the others' policy preferences; each has their points of vulnerability." With all due respect, Brad, I don't see it. Since the US threat to impose tariffs is a phony, China can "completely ignore" our preferences, and it pretty much has. The US is backed into a corner with a teeny weeny twig for defense. A twig it doesn't even dare to use.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 01:28:38
@dr. setster Below you find a post from braddelongs post on James Fellows notes in the atlantic monthly. From what I understand the numbers from treasury show that asian countries have reduced their holdings on treasuries during 2007. From what I have been reading on your posts I had understood they are still adding treasuries. What am I not understanding? The link is bookmarked on my home Mac but is easily pulled up via Google. Treasury released a chart showing changes in total holding of Treasuries by foreign nations during FY 2007. The results are stunning. Japan is down by $34 billion y o y, China down is down $7 bn y o y and $33 bn sinc last March. Taiwan has reduced their portfolio by 17% in a single year while Korea cut back by 33%. Note this not a measure of relative purhases, we are talking total accumulated holdings. People who are panicking about the implications of Asian central banks not buying up new debt issuances should unclench a little, that train left the station a while back. Who is picking up the slack? The UK whose total holdings went from $76 bn to $315 bn in a single year and Brazil which went from $51 bn to $120 billion over that same period. Try www.treas.gov/tfh/mfh.txt Asia is liquidating, the UK, Brazil, oil producers are beefing up on Treasuries, the ground is moving under our feet. To call this movement 'underreported' doesn't begin to touch this new reality. Posted by: Bruce Webb | February 02, 2008 at 06:32 PM www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt sometimes the iPhone is over helpful in 'correcting' typo's. bmh
Reply to this comment By bmh on 2008-02-03 05:25:18
"...a $100 billion loss on subprime loans would represent only 0.1% of the $100 trillion in combined assets of all U.S. households and U.S. non-farm, non-financial corporations. Even if losses ballooned to $300 billion, it would represent less then 0.3% of total U.S. assets..." http://www.ftportfolios.com/Commentary/EconomicResearch/2008/1/28/Wesbury_WSJ:_The_Economy_Is_Fine_Really
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 05:41:48
are 'U.S.' assets more 'real' than 'Chinese' [or X] assets? "...“the U.S. equity market is still regarded as the highest quality in the world.”..." http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/business/03fund.html?ref=business
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 06:28:42
moldbug: "For the PBOC or any CB, there is no analogous process that I can think of. You can think of holders of RMB or sterilization bonds as creditors, but the exchange value of these "securities" does not depend on the PBOC's assets." Agreed on the lack of a real connection between assets and liabilities. Do you draw any distinction along these lines between central bank liabilities and more general government debt liabilities. Or is it the same continuum? Similarly, do you draw any distinction between the 'quality' of domestic versus foreign assets held by a central bank?
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-03 07:23:35
bmh -- I had a post on that topic a few weeks back, after the release of the TIC data. I argued then that the fall in China's holdings of treasuries is a bit misleading, for two reasons: a) China is adding to its holdings of close substitutes to Treasuries, notably Agency bonds. b) Because of quirks in the way the data is tabulated, a lot of China's new purchases of treasuries show up as purchases in the UK. Basically, a british or french bank buys a treasury from the US -- and it shows up as the sale of a US treasury bond to a private investor in the UK. The next day (when the US is asleep but Asia and europe are awake) the bank sells its bond to China. that doesn't show up in the monthly data. I have a fair degree of confidence on the last point because the treasury does an annual survey of foreign holdings and that survey has consistently revised China's holdings up and the UK's holdings down. If you look at the "Series breaks" in june in the data on the treasury web page, you will see it. i also did a graph showing it for my last TIC data post. In march, the new survey data will come out, and I expect China's treasury holdings will be revised up. Korea, Japan and Taiwan are in a sense following China's lead -- they seem to have reduced their treasury holdings and increased their Agency holdings. I wouldn't be surprised if korea is also diversifying away from the dollar. Bottom line: it is a mistake to forget about Agencies, and the big increase in Treasuries held in London is misleading, as a lot of those bonds have been sold to central banks around the world (especially, judging from past data revisions, China). hope that helps
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-03 09:14:20
Guest -- i don't get how the US equities might rock point relates to a post on central bank balance sheets. The chinese assets that are the subject of this post are their investments in the us (for now, mostly bonds) -- i.e. US financial instruments owned by the government of China. They are no different than the majority of the US assets held by US domestic investors.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-03 09:18:43
influential is when you click out of rgemonitor to see what other people are saying, find a relevant item, then half way through the other blogger or article admits - 'according to nouriel roubini.' influential is when an irish sunday newspaper illustrates an article on share and property values with a large colour cartoon of a wylie e coyote figure going over a cliff. most journalists are also surfers and lurkers. influential is not when they publish you or read you. influential is when they quote you. really really influential is when they don't even know they are quoting you. .
Reply to this comment By gillies on 2008-02-03 10:00:52
@Dr. Setser Re TIC data, Agency bonds, purchase via UK Thank you for reminding me, I read that post but did not remember your interpretation of the TIC data. BMH
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 11:43:13
The set of all influential people excludes almost all journalists.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 11:43:18
journalists can be quite influential -- gov. officials usually care how they are perceived, and many journalists help shape that.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-03 13:19:53
not quite on topic - but the alcoa / chinalco synchronised dawn raid on rio tinto shares, advised by lehman bros, may point to the future. americans and chinese acting as synergistic capitalists, not as quasi cold war rival unilateralists. what is the alternative ? protectionism and isolationism ? he who rides the dragon fears to dismount. .
Reply to this comment By gillies on 2008-02-03 13:25:57
A little more about China going shopping: "DJ China Devt Bank Eyeing Glencore's Xstrata Stake -Report LONDON (Dow Jones)-The China Development Bank has held talks with Swiss commodities trader Glencore AG about buying its 35% stake in Xstrata PLC (XTA.LN), valued at around GBP15 billion, U.K. newspaper The Sunday Telegraph reported. The approach could derail talks between Glencore and Brazilian mining giant Companhia Vale do Rio Doce (VALE5.BR) over the Xstrata stake, although Glencore is understood to favor that deal, the paper reported." And the other news: "DJ China Mulls Legal Fight On BHP Billiton-Rio Tinto - Report LONDON (Dow Jones)--China is preparing to launch a legal challenge against BHP Billiton Ltd.'s (BHP) planned $130 billion bid for Rio Tinto Ltd. (RIO.AU), the Observer reports Sunday. The newspaper, which does not cite any sources, says high-ranking officials from the Chinese embassy in London have been approaching top City law firms on the matter. No official could be reached at the U.K.'s China embassy. Beijing, which recently drew up framework legislation for the country's first competition law, is concerned that a combination of Rio Tinto and BHP would control over a third of the world's sea borne exports of iron ore, the Observer says." For me those investments are not what I call small investments, what happens if they are not allowed to make a move on these strategic investments? Will these investments have any influence on the dollar? Why are they making these investments if the market is expecting a drop in commodity prices? Interesting times. The Dane
Reply to this comment By The Dane on 2008-02-03 14:50:51
It looks like I misunderstood the news about Rio Tinto, I thought CIC was going to buy Rio Tinto but they are not?!? Sorry about that one. The Dane
Reply to this comment By The Dane on 2008-02-03 15:08:50
Here is the other news that made me confused about CIC and Rio Tinto: "LONDON (Dow Jones)--State-owned China Investment Corp. has put a $120 billion war chest at the disposal of Chinalco as it prepares to battle with BHP Billiton Ltd. (BHP) over mining group Rio Tinto Ltd. (RIO.AU), the Sunday Times reports, without citing any sources. Chinalco, the state-owned aluminum group, and Alcoa Inc. (AA) stunned markets Friday with the announcement that they had jointly purchased 12% of Rio Tinto's London-listed shares for $14.1 billion. The pair said they don't currently plan to make an offer for Rio Tinto but will reconsider that position if BHP increases its bid." I am not shure if CIC or Chinalco is making an offer for Rio Tinto. The Dane
Reply to this comment By The Dane on 2008-02-03 15:22:55
Sorry for so many posts but here is the answer it seems: "Chinese gear up for Rio Tinto battle (John Waples and Dominic O’Connell) THE Chinese government has put a $120 billion (£60 billion) war chest at the disposal of Chinalco, the state-owned aluminium group, as it prepares to battle with BHP Billiton over mining group Rio Tinto. The money would be made available through CIC (China Investment Corporation), the sovereign wealth fund behind Beijing’s recent investments in the Wall Street firms Blackstone and Morgan Stanley." Source: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3293956.ece It looks like two very big investments. The Dane.
Reply to this comment By The Dane on 2008-02-03 15:34:19
Dane: I thought CIC was going to buy Rio Tinto but they are not?!? Not CIC, China Aluminum. One thing that makes the US-China relationship very different than the US-Soviet relationship is that no government or business official that I know makes the claim that the Chinese system of politics or economics is better than the US system in any universal sense, and there is no particular need or desire to export the Chinese political or economic system to other countries. The claim is merely that what exists more or less works for China. There's also no ideological reason that keeps China from copying US systems. Chinese companies are partnering with US companies in large part because they think that they are behind and what to learn how US companies do things. Something else that has changed in the last ten years is the shape of the US economy. You are hearing less and less about jobs moving overseas because those jobs are gone. The big manufacturers and unions have negotiated a settlement in which the automakers keep paying salaries and pensions to people already working, in exchange the unions don't complain when new factories are set up overseas. Detroit is not hiring new people. Wall Street (despite the recent setbacks) is. So the political dialogue in the US is going to be dominated by stockbrokers, longshoremen, software developers, and people that work in the checkout lines at Walmart rather than factory workers. Except for some very isolated cases (textiles) there isn't any support in the US for protectionism. Trade protectionism is a dead horse, and one of the questions that I have for Brad is that given that there isn't any real support for balanced trade, how do you politically "sell" the type of balancing you think it necessary. I'll make it harder for you to borrow money, your goods are going to be more expensive, and you might be out of a job is not the type of thing that gets you votes.
Reply to this comment By Twofish on 2008-02-03 16:02:15
2fish -- the polling data on globalization suggests that there is a lot of support for certain kinds of protectionism; i did a post on it a while back. a majority of republicans now thinks there is too much globalization. the auto unions are beaten down, but there has been an ongoing loss of parts jobs and the like. and line workers don't become wall street traders. mortgage brokers maybe, but that business is off. furniture, auto parts, machinery etc are all facing CHinese pressure. electronics assembly had been offshored, but not a lot of other kinds of jobs - and china is moving into those markets. When set of chinese made cars start appearing in the US and more us auto plants start being relocated to cHina, i would expect more pressure -- i would argue that the lack of a stronger reaction now stems fundamentally from the fact that import growth has actually slowed, and export growth has picked up -- which means that the tradables sector is growing. exchange rate adjustment v europe had something to do with that. but if the us slows and more of the remaining us manufacturing sector moves to cHina, i would expect a lot of pressure. and if the general election is fought in iowa, wisconsin, indiana, michigan and ohio, well -- there are still more factory workers than new economy/ wall street jobs there i suspect.
Reply to this comment By bsetser on 2008-02-03 16:13:07
dane -- it will be interesting to see where the financing for china aluminum's bid comes from. it might be from the cic. it might be from the state banks (which the cic owns). remmeber, they have a ton of fx too. I don't quite see how the cic can support this bid tho and also argue that it is a passive, purely commercial investor -- china is worried that BHP/ Rio would gain market power that they would use to boost prices on China, and china wants to break that up, using its financial might. Fair enough, but that is a fairly strategic motivation for taking a stake in a mining company.
Reply to this comment By bsetsre on 2008-02-03 16:15:32
Thank you for your answers. Is this not some of the biggest bids on foreign companies from chinese "investment entities"? To me it looks like some huge numbers. The Dane
Reply to this comment By The Dane on 2008-02-03 16:27:40
anon, The mix of assets held by a CB is certainly very important. An asset in the hands of a CB is no different from an asset in the hands of anyone else. It is a property right. While CBs are certainly sovereign institutions, they are subject to both formal national laws and informal international conventions. So when the PBoC holds one dollar, you might say it has one right to issue one dollar. The Fed has infinity rights to issue one dollar. The Fed's right to issue dollars is a function of formal domestic law. The PBoC's right to issue dollars is a function of international convention, whose formality is a matter of debate. At least it if it can cajole Congress into assisting it with the matter, the Fed easily has the sovereign power to cancel all dollars, T-bonds, etc, held by the PBoC. It can even cancel liabilities of completely private institutions. It has dozens of mechanisms with which it can perform this kind of operation. Okay, maybe not dozens, but a lot. As a courtesy to its friends overseas, the United States chooses not to cancel the liabilities issued by Americans which are held by foreigners in any or all foreign countries. I regard this courtesy as extremely prudent and I sure hope anyone reading this does likewise, but it is still a matter of sovereign discretion. Likewise, China, at her sovereign discretion, could run off her own dollar notes without permission, like North Korea. As a matter of her own courtesy, itself quite remarkable by historical standards, she chooses not to do this. Obviously this is also very prudent. These exchanges of international courtesy are essential to the livelihoods of billions of people. I am just stating the realities. When a CB holds domestic liabilities - let's say it's the CB of Zambonia - the relationship is quite different. A liability to the government is no different from a tax liability. It may be forgiven, but it cannot be laughed at. At least not in Zambonia. Finally, a CB may hold assets directly - such as mold. It either keeps this in big bars in its basement, or (in "earmarked" form) at the FRB in New York. Obviously, for any nation which actually considers itself sovereign, holding direct assets overseas is a strange decision. I'm not going to say the whole thing is a plot of the Rockefellers, the CFR and the Rosicrucians, but you gotta wonder, man. And folding mold receivables and monetary mold into one line on their balance sheets is another unusual accounting practice which I believe the CBs have promised to correct. This may or may not happen, but it will certainly be interesting either way.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-03 16:53:54
And as for CB liabilities versus other government liabilities: as you can probably guess, I don't see the need for separate balance sheets here. It produces confusion and nothing else. Treasury bonds are exactly as risk-free as they would be if they were issued by the Fed, because there is no realistic possibility that USG as a whole will fail to honor them - since it can do so trivially. This is my recipe for monetary reform, in one paragraph: convert all government liabilities, implicit and explicit, direct or indirect, to dollars present or future. Add a heap of buckaroos for USG to spend down until it can balance its freakin' budget. Fix the number of dollars. Convert to mold, stipulate in Constitution, carve on big hunk of stone, etc, according to taste. The GSEs, FHA, FDIC insured deposit accounts, and other financial instruments are certainly on this list. As are entitlements such as Social Security, service entitlements such as Medicare, and really anything that looks suspiciously like a recurring payment. Do we send Zambonia a check for $500 million every year? Then the Zambonian people will certainly be outraged if we just stop. Issue them a corresponding consol, maybe with a slight haircut to show we mean business, and wish them well in their new career as an actual independent country.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-03 17:09:48
When we talk of China losing money, we should not forget that we are talking of a regime that in the past let its people starve so it could increase its steel production. One shouldn't underestimate the totalitarian powers of the Chinese government. For us westerners, is is unacceptable to lose money. For China, it may be totally acceptable if this leads to strategic national objectives such as an increase political power in the world. The point is: the debate here cannot be limited to economics. There are 2 factors that may be more effective in forcing the hand of the Chinese: (1) if the amount of reserve they need to accumulate keeps increasing at a fast pace (+40% past year), (2) internal economic distortions such as inflation.
Reply to this comment By FG on 2008-02-03 18:32:34
Protectionism would backfire quite quickly and I think the US would reverse course. But the decline of the dollar has already stimulated exports and I would think more decline will produce more exports and this in turn would take some of the pressure off for tariffs and also permit retaliation if we did levy tariffs. In any case if Chinese goods were limited, other exporters would take their place, so we would have to levy tariffs vs. almost all of Asia. Not very likely.
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-03 20:27:59
moldbug, Thanks for comments. My thoughts on the balance sheet issue: Central bank assets such as domestic government bonds or even foreign exchange reserves are primarily a bookkeeping device designed to create the impression of a distinct balance sheet. The economics of central banks are integrated with those of their governments, and so are their economic balance sheets. For example, a government can recapitalize its central bank by funding the recap with the ‘proceeds’ of government bonds ‘sold’ to the bank. Most central bank liabilities such as currency and bank reserves are essentially a liquidity utility provided to the public. Who could argue that paper currency does not provide utility in a fiat money system in the form of liquidity? Or that bank reserves similarly provide utility to banks settling up the day’s business with each other? This is not to say that currency is not subject to inflation or dilution, but that’s a separate aspect apart from its utility within a system of money, even if that money is depreciating over time. An alternative central bank asset corresponding to these liabilities might be the “deemed value” of the utility of the liability instrument provided by the government/bank. It makes no difference to the ultimate economics. And foreign exchange reserves can easily be accounted for away from the balance sheet of the central bank. Many countries already do this. Central bank liabilities provide more or less permanent funding for the government and tracking the ‘use’ of these funds as opposed to other sources of funds is not particularly relevant in an economic sense. But central bank liabilities should not be suspect simply because they can’t be redeemed. Their non-redeemable characteristic is natural to their utility. The fact that they are not ‘redeemable’, while reminding one they are not linked directly to gold, also reflects the fact that they are designed to be perpetual in their characteristic of providing monetary utility (liquidity) to their various holders within the system of money. The liquidity utility characteristic is arguably more critical than the gold backing characteristic. Other government debt is generally not perpetual. Still, central bank liabilities are part of a continuum of government liabilities providing the same sort of funding in a cumulative sense for general government purposes.
Reply to this comment By Anonymous on 2008-02-03 21:49:06
"US equities might rock point"?
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-04 05:48:40
moldbug - if, in fact, china is not a 'she', might that change your perspective?
Reply to this comment By Guest on 2008-02-04 06:01:22
anon, Thanks for your very cogent comments. I think the formulation you propose, of consolidating the sovereign balance sheet, is an excellent one. It is also one that many people ought to be able to understand. The idea of liquidity as a public service is certainly interesting. I am not sure this space is really adequate to convey my full perspective on this theory. It depends too much on my admittedly eccentric views of Washington in toto. This essay by Charles Francis Adams is long, but perhaps a good background: http://www.historians.org/info/AHA_History/cfadams.htm One can certainly wonder what Adams would have made of Washington's next 50 years - let alone its next 100. Suffice it to say that there is one big difference between liquidity as a public service and, say, clean water, or free beer, or even free Shakespeare in Central Park, as a public service. Various theories of government may deny that the State should provide the latter. Or they may encourage it. But they all admit that the more clean water or the more free beer or the more Shakespeare in Central Park the State can provide, the better, because water and beer and Shakespeare are all desirable goods. On the contrary, most historical theories of government - at least before the last century - viewed the provision of liquidity not as a service, but as its polar opposite: an exaction. Ie, a tax. While they may have differed on whether this tax was essential or justified, they all agreed that there was a linear dimension, on one end of which was sound money in the form of fixed weights of precious metals, in the middle of which existed various iffy practices such as the abrasion, lathing, reformulation, or simple redefinition of coin, and at the other end lay irredeemable paper currency. And they all agreed that moving along this dimension constituted an increase in taxation, just as if it were, say, an increase in the import duty on donkey wool. The reason for this is straightforward. Any increase in the money supply constitutes a dilution, just as if you were diluting equity shares in a corporation. After all, if you confiscated everyone's money, put it all in one big vault, transferred ownership of the vault to a newly created corporation, and returned the money as shares pro rata in the corporation, you would leave everyone in a neutral position - if feeling slightly violated. If you then exchange these shares for irredeemable paper, they will feel really violated. But if history tells us anything, it tells us that after a while they'll get over it. The exercise is slightly more complicated when we add a dimension and consider not just present money, but also future money - in the form of bonds and other recurring payments, whether enforced by formal law or made customary by political reality. However, the result is the same. Of course, all this tells us is that the process of converting a monetary system from a fully redeemable metallic standard, to a fractionally redeemable metallic standard, to irredeemable tokens, constitutes an exaction. It does not tell us whether this exaction is good or bad. Indeed, it can only be evaluated as good or bad relative to some other means of raising revenue, eg, the donkey-wool tariff. Government cannot exist without exactions, and I for one cannot exist without government. I am a terrible shot. The problem with dilution as a revenue measure, in my opinion, is that none of the motivations for selecting it strike me as good. Is the donkey-wool tariff an evil tax? If the reason you are taxing donkey wool is that your main dealers of donkey wool are Armenians, and your goal is not to maximize revenue but to show the Armenians who's boss, sign me up for free trade in donkey wool. On the other hand, if your goal is to preserve the endangered wild donkey - etc. As far as I can tell, the main advantage of dilution is political. It is an extremely surreptitious way to raise money and a difficult one to resist. Moreover, if you are going to dilute the money supply, the most overt and least destabilizing way is to do it formally, ie, putting it on the balance sheet. What our financial system is essentially doing now is diluting the monetary system by extending informal loan guarantees to off-balance-sheet entities. I really don't think Charles Francis Adams would approve. Now, is money useful in the abstract sense that you describe? It certainly is. Moreover, without government there may be such a thing as money, but there is no such thing as finance. Finance equals money plus contract, and only a sovereign power can judge and enforce contracts. It is in fact selective nonenforcement of this power that allowed the 18th- and 19th-century state to dilute the money supply by enacting legal tender laws, etc, which amounted to the third-party revocation of gold clauses (the 1797 English "bank restriction" was the first example). However, contracts can specify delivery of any good - precious metals, lumber, General Tso's Chicken, etc. The sovereign power of enforcing contracts is quite orthogonal, as we Unix jockeys say, to the products and services to be transferred. What makes precious metals "precious" (the number of electrons in their p-shell?), and why so many contracts specify them, is a very interesting topic, but quite separate from the question of whether liquidity is a public good or a public bad.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-04 11:33:25
Moldbug, If you are going to regard government debt as future money, then perhaps you should regard government taxation as future negative money, in which case after netting you end up with something nearer the present supply of base money. Bonds are not so much intended as a promise to print more money as a promise to pay back out money taken in taxes. Yes, a fiat money system can be abused, as a gold standard can be, but unless the authorities are really irresponsible, you can always get some real value from your holdings of base money by sending them in settlement of your next tax liability. As you know, I have some sympathy for a real commodity standard, but regard a gold standard as dangerously concentrated on one commodity. But in my view, the main problem with the present US fiat money system is the people in charge of it.
Reply to this comment By RebelEconomist on 2008-02-04 13:04:44
Brad, many thanks for your detailed answers.
Reply to this comment By Laurent GUERBY on 2008-02-04 13:20:10
RE, I'm not sure there's really any such thing as "negative money." For example, if you think of money as a commodity standard, what is a negative commodity? It doesn't compute. Another way to look at the issue is to ask: what happens if you change Treasury liabilities into Fed liabilities? How does it affect anyone's life? I think it's fairly clear that the answer is "it doesn't." If replacing A with B has no meaningful effect, surely A and B must be the same thing. The fact that it can exact taxes in dollars is certainly one mechanism by which USG can make good on its debts. Another way is by producing new dollars. If it does not fulfill its obligations in the first way, it will certainly fulfill them in the second way. Thus we can ignore the whole issue and just treat Treasuries as risk-free structures, which is exactly what they are. (I keep reading that Moody's is supposedly about to "downgrade Treasury bonds." Moody's of course can do whatever it likes, but the concept is nonsensical.) However, I would agree with your characterization of the problem with the present system! Fiat currency is perfectly workable as long as the quantity of notes is fixed - it can, in theory, be made harder than gold, whose supply is diluted by mining.
Reply to this comment By moldbug on 2008-02-04 20:10:37

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